I think an umpire might very well allow the playing of the “forgotten” boule. Not only that, but the umpire might also declare dead the last boule played by the team that had the point as it was played contrary to the rules at which time Article 23 Article 24 applies. A team has the obligation to KNOW whose turn it is to play BEFORE it plays.
Hi Gary, I’m glad that you called me on this point, because it gives me a reason to issue a disclaimer that I perhaps should have included in the post.
For others reading this post, I first want to note that the question “How should a situation involving a forgotten boule be handled?” is one that comes up regularly on online petanque forums. Now the disclaimer— Gary is absolutely correct. The usual/standard opinion/answer is the one that Gary has described.
My personal opinion is that the standard answer is wrong. Here’s why.
I think it is important to distinguish between two situations that are superficially similar, but fundamentally quite different.
There is one kind of situation that I will call an “overlooked boule” situation. It can happen like this. Albert, a player from team A, throws boule A5 and gains the point. He looks around and doesn’t see that team B has any unplayed boules. Without asking team B if they are out of boules, he judges that team B is out of boules and throws his last boule, A6. Then team B protests. They still had one boule left, a boule that Albert had somehow overlooked.
An “overlooked boule” situation should be handled just the way that Gary described (above). Boule A6 is a “boule played out of turn” and the provisions of Article 23 Article 24 apply. Team B [not the umpire] can invoke the advantage rule, and they may choose that A6 is declared dead and (if possible) everything moved by A6 is put back in its original place.
There is a another, different kind of situation. It is what I called a “forgotten boule” situation in my post, and it should be handled as described in my post. It can happen like this. Arthur, a player from team A, throws boule A5 and gains the point. He looks around and doesn’t see any unplayed boules. He asks team B if they are out of boules. Team B says “Yes, we’re out .” So Arthur throws his last boule, A6. Then someone on team B realizes/remembers that he still has one unplayed boule.
In such a situation, team A should have the option of invoking the advantage rule and declaring team B’s forgotten boule to be dead. Here’s why.
In this situation, team B is clearly the party at fault. By asking team B if they were out of boules, Arthur fulfilled his team’s obligation to know (or at least, to make a reasonable attempt to find out) whose turn it is to play. Team B has the same obligation — to know whose turn it is to play— before refusing to play. And in this case Team B FAILED to fulfill that obligation.
Here (as in so many other cases) we must use reasoning by analogy when interpreting the FIPJP rules. It is widely accepted that a boule played out-of-turn is subject to the advantage rule specified in Article 23 24. By analogy, we can also say that a boule NOT played WHEN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN PLAYED is subject to the same rule. If a team is given an opportunity to play when it is their turn, and (for whatever reason) they refuse to do so, then their unplayed boule is subject to the advantage rule specified in Article 23 24. The opposing team may choose to declare the forgotten boule to be dead.
This is an interesting point here, and I understand your distinction between the two circumstances. I have been on the receiving end of circumstance two. A player placed one of her boules outside the wood surround. We played through the end, and my partner asked if they were out of boules. They said yes, so my partner pointed in with her last boule to win the end by two points. The player then discovered her last boule and carreau’d the closest boule to win the end. As a compromise we agreed to call the end null and start again. Ironically it was the first end and we won the game 13-0.
The other experience was in a rare bad tempered game. The opposition declined to answer if they were out of boules, claiming that they were not under any compulsion to do so! I simply counted the boules on ground, remembering the dead boule, and I discovered they had one boule left which they were keeping in their pocket. Since then I concentrate and always know exactly how many boules the opposition have left at any point in the end.
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I think an umpire might very well allow the playing of the “forgotten” boule. Not only that, but the umpire might also declare dead the last boule played by the team that had the point as it was played contrary to the rules at which time
Article 23Article 24 applies. A team has the obligation to KNOW whose turn it is to play BEFORE it plays.LikeLike
Hi Gary, I’m glad that you called me on this point, because it gives me a reason to issue a disclaimer that I perhaps should have included in the post.
For others reading this post, I first want to note that the question “How should a situation involving a forgotten boule be handled?” is one that comes up regularly on online petanque forums. Now the disclaimer— Gary is absolutely correct. The usual/standard opinion/answer is the one that Gary has described.
My personal opinion is that the standard answer is wrong. Here’s why.
I think it is important to distinguish between two situations that are superficially similar, but fundamentally quite different.
There is one kind of situation that I will call an “overlooked boule” situation. It can happen like this. Albert, a player from team A, throws boule A5 and gains the point. He looks around and doesn’t see that team B has any unplayed boules. Without asking team B if they are out of boules, he judges that team B is out of boules and throws his last boule, A6. Then team B protests. They still had one boule left, a boule that Albert had somehow overlooked.
An “overlooked boule” situation should be handled just the way that Gary described (above). Boule A6 is a “boule played out of turn” and the provisions of
Article 23Article 24 apply. Team B [not the umpire] can invoke the advantage rule, and they may choose that A6 is declared dead and (if possible) everything moved by A6 is put back in its original place.There is a another, different kind of situation. It is what I called a “forgotten boule” situation in my post, and it should be handled as described in my post. It can happen like this. Arthur, a player from team A, throws boule A5 and gains the point. He looks around and doesn’t see any unplayed boules. He asks team B if they are out of boules. Team B says “Yes, we’re out .” So Arthur throws his last boule, A6. Then someone on team B realizes/remembers that he still has one unplayed boule.
In such a situation, team A should have the option of invoking the advantage rule and declaring team B’s forgotten boule to be dead. Here’s why.
In this situation, team B is clearly the party at fault. By asking team B if they were out of boules, Arthur fulfilled his team’s obligation to know (or at least, to make a reasonable attempt to find out) whose turn it is to play. Team B has the same obligation — to know whose turn it is to play— before refusing to play. And in this case Team B FAILED to fulfill that obligation.
Here (as in so many other cases) we must use reasoning by analogy when interpreting the FIPJP rules. It is widely accepted that a boule played out-of-turn is subject to the advantage rule specified in Article
2324. By analogy, we can also say that a boule NOT played WHEN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN PLAYED is subject to the same rule. If a team is given an opportunity to play when it is their turn, and (for whatever reason) they refuse to do so, then their unplayed boule is subject to the advantage rule specified in Article2324. The opposing team may choose to declare the forgotten boule to be dead.LikeLike
This is an interesting point here, and I understand your distinction between the two circumstances. I have been on the receiving end of circumstance two. A player placed one of her boules outside the wood surround. We played through the end, and my partner asked if they were out of boules. They said yes, so my partner pointed in with her last boule to win the end by two points. The player then discovered her last boule and carreau’d the closest boule to win the end. As a compromise we agreed to call the end null and start again. Ironically it was the first end and we won the game 13-0.
The other experience was in a rare bad tempered game. The opposition declined to answer if they were out of boules, claiming that they were not under any compulsion to do so! I simply counted the boules on ground, remembering the dead boule, and I discovered they had one boule left which they were keeping in their pocket. Since then I concentrate and always know exactly how many boules the opposition have left at any point in the end.
LikeLike